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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gypsy55 View Post
    Hi Jennings
    I don't believe I said Universal Language, I think what I said was Universal Energy and there is a big difference. The language we dream in is usually our mother tongue.

    Quote by Jennings
    I do accept, although reluctantly, that we are born with our future mapped but it is such a controversial subject that is not easily understood. When one considers the vast numbers that are slaughtered in this world of ours or who, say, are held in secure establishments against their wills; were they then born to suffer such a fate? It seems doubtful yet why does it occur? My logic cannot accept that if there exists such a devine creature as a God that he (or whatever it is) would make such a foolish blunder. This old world of ours that moves through cosmic space seems totally unaware of the disasters that it creates in its wake. As the ancient Persian poet Khayyam said, "Make game of that which makes as much of thee"! Had I known, prior to birth, the life that lay ahead of me, I would have chosen to remain dead (or unborn if you prefer). I have had an abundance of evidence indicating that there is a spiritual side to life but all I can say is that when I pass-over I do not want to be part of it.

    Although we chose a life path before birth, many people fail to remain on that path, We are given many choices throughout our time on earth and most people stray from the original path, some down roads that are so far removed from their original choice that to blame their corruption or circumstances on God would be a great injustice. Everyones life path is filled with obstacles that we need to learn from and overcome, and it is how we deal with these obstacles that can lead us back to the right path or further away. All paths eventually lead back to where we started no matter how many wrong or right paths we have chosen along the way.
    I believe that we have a destiny and that God has a goal for us. I think that life is a lesson and we have the ability to make right and wrong choices that will affect our destiny. I believe that some dreams are part of our concious world ie: stress, desire, fears, etc. I also believe that we all have are given the gift to forsee the future. Some people choose to ignore or partially block the gift while others grab it by the reins and take off with it ie. sensitives. I also believe that many of our dreams are "gifts" from God. He/She is warning us/sending us messages to help us thru life. I am extremely open to this help from God and fully embrace my dreams.

  2. #22
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    It was not universal energy to which I was referring Gypsy but to the enigmatic and allegorical nature of dream which, as I had mentioned, is conveyed to us metaphorically in the figurative sense. Dreams cannot be understood unless one knows the nature and extent of metaphor. You may wish to read the following text to grasp its meaning:

    Metaphor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Here is a short metaphor which you will most likely understand yet its meaning is not in its literal interpretation:

    "The road I trod through life was of a slower pace,
    some cobbles met I found were hard beneath my feet..."
    (Lesley Park)


    The same principle applies to dream interpretation.

    Additionally, similar applies to that of theme. See the following description which might help in its understanding:


    The key to the dream's interpretaion rests in its theme; it is from this that the dream's symbolic meaning can be understood; contrary to many cherished views the symbolic meaning is not written in stone although some may possess a generilsed meaning but nothing more. Another feature is keeping one's own experiences and beliefs out of the interpretation so objectivity, where possible, is desirable if not imperative.

    My question was, why should the meaning of dream be encoded in such an ambiguous manner when the language spoken in the dream is our native tongue. Even though its allegory and metaphors are universal why should its meaning not be made more explicit?

  3. #23
    MichelleM78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennings View Post
    DrmDoc, Take out the religious content of Gypsy's post and I subscribe to much of what she says; fortunately, I am anti-religious (you didn't think I was about to say 'regretfully')?

    I have kept dogs for almost 30 years and I would suggest that their dreams have a similar affect on them as dreams have on us; Okay, this cannot be proved (as far as I am aware) but from observation of the dynamics of their interaction with other animals including us humans they do learn and make adjustments to their behaviour and I would suggest that dreaming helps them to do this.

    I had three dogs until recently, two dominant males and a female (presently highly pregnant and due next week), and posturing, attacking, and pairing, was a regular feature. The older dog, the 'James Cagney' of the dog world (currently Norfolk terriers) I noticed dreamt more during this period of hostility. Sadly we had to find another home for the other male; it is a nice one and he is well settled and interestingly, since, the older dog has not shown any noticeable signs of dreaming.

    I too find that whenever I am stressed or focussed on some problem that I become increasingly aware of my dreams and have occasionally benefitted from understanding them. They do seem to assist in maintaining one's equilibrium but for a number of years, although I dream, I have considerable difficulty at recalling them which I think is due to the fact that I am retired and have been freewheeling in life for some considerable period, so there is nothing in my life to provide the dream with sufficient energy to remember it.

    My interest in dream goes back to early infancy, indeed, as far back as I can recall and, without declaring my age, probably around 75 years! I have been reading the dreams of my family and friends for a number of years, more as a party-piece, so it is not unfamiliar territory.
    I also believe that animals dream. I have 3 cats and 1 dog. I have seen both my cats and my dog dream. In fact they even have nightmares. Currently my one kitten is fast asleep and twitching his tail and legs. I am sure he is having a good dream...maybe playing with the other kitties....definitely no stress on his face. I have also seen my dog chasing things in her dreams (probably squirrls or bunnies). Its funny you will see her ear twitch and then her legs start going. I have calmed her during nightmares by kneeling beside her and rubbing her head while telling her that everything was going to be all right.

  4. #24
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    Default Wow!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennings View Post
    It was not universal energy to which I was referring Gypsy but to the enigmatic and allegorical nature of dream which, as I had mentioned, is conveyed to us metaphorically in the figurative sense. Dreams cannot be understood unless one knows the nature and extent of metaphor. You may wish to read the following text to grasp its meaning:

    Metaphor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Here is a short metaphor which you will most likely understand yet its meaning is not in its literal interpretation:

    "The road I trod through life was of a slower pace,
    some cobbles met I found were hard beneath my feet..."
    (Lesley Park)


    The same principle applies to dream interpretation.

    Additionally, similar applies to that of theme. See the following description which might help in its understanding:


    The key to the dream's interpretaion rests in its theme; it is from this that the dream's symbolic meaning can be understood; contrary to many cherished views the symbolic meaning is not written in stone although some may possess a generilsed meaning but nothing more. Another feature is keeping one's own experiences and beliefs out of the interpretation so objectivity, where possible, is desirable if not imperative.

    My question was, why should the meaning of dream be encoded in such an ambiguous manner when the language spoken in the dream is our native tongue. Even though its allegory and metaphors are universal why should its meaning not be made more explicit?
    I do understand the English Language and I am very aware of the definition of "metaphor" You can say more w/ less words! Dreams are vague b/c we must work to figure out their messages. Life is not handed to us. We must work for it. If our dreams told us explicitly what to do then we would spend our entire life asleep! Our goal should be to live our lives to the fullest!

  5. #25
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    I do look forward to seeing your interpretations Michelle but one moot point for clarification purposes; I am uncertain what you are trying to suggest when you state, "living life to its 'fullest'; what would you be implying by the term 'fullest'? It seems to suggest that you are succeeding while others are failing in this direction. It would be nice to know where you feel you differ so successfully from others?

    Interestingly, I thought I was addressing Gypsy's post originally!
    Last edited by Jennings; 02-07-2008 at 07:55 PM.

  6. #26
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    Question Haha!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennings View Post
    I am uncertain what you are trying to suggest when you state, "living life to its 'fullest'; what would you be implying by the term 'fullest'? It seems to suggest that you are succeeding while others are failing in this direction. It would be nice to know where you feel you differ so successfully from others?
    You are such a funny man! I meant in general people should live their life to its fullest potential.....by no means am I saying that I am better than anyone else! In fact I am barely scraping by w/ what I have been given!

    Funny enough....I feel there may be some projection of feelings going on here (on your part!) BTW....where is your wife while you sit on the computer typing away?

  7. #27
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    Probably transference Michelle rather than pojection; did you have a father problem possibly? Do go to bed and have a good night's sleep; you may feel better tomorrow when you might be nicer.

  8. #28
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    No. My father and I don't have problems....who do you think you are Sigmund Freud. I'll make sure to look you up in Scotland and we can go down to the pub!:laughbounce:

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ”Wolfy”
    Would not it be more likely that the parts of the dream one can’t remember activate the brain? My perception is that the level of consciousness is controlled by dreams.
    Hi Wolfy,

    Much of what I understand and have come to believe about the nature of dreams and dreaming is rooted in the physiological, neurological, and evolutional evidence research has provided. Without such evidence, I think that much of what we believe about dreams becomes a matter of spirituality and faith, which requires no evidence. Although I have very strong spiritual ideas, faith without substance do not answer many of the questions we may have about dreaming.

    In the realm of evidence contemporary dream science provides, the question of which came first “dreaming or brain activation” is decided. Without question, dreaming is a product of brain activation and not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by ”Wolfy”
    I’m sure you are familiar with idea that consciousness has a tendency to fall naturally to the level of its surrounding and needs a constant input of quantum energy….lower levels of consciousness are beyond the scope of the brain and probably beyond measuring....looking back into the beginning of a dream sometimes one can perceive the input of quantum energy: light and colour.
    Consciousness, from a perspective of brain science, is a product of brain function and the nourishment the body receives sustains brain function. Although light and color stimulates conscious brain function, the colors and light we remember from dreaming are constructs from the memory stores of the brain.

    Quote Originally Posted by ”Wolfy”
    At my age I can remember more of my dreams. I can also look further back into the dream and have a glance at the chaos, violence, and strange ideas needed in the early part of dreams to raise the level of consciousness.
    Quote Originally Posted by ”Jennings”
    ….meantime for the comment on ageism on not being able to recall one's dreams; it looks as if, at 77, I've become a member of the SC's club! From my own observations I would suggest that this feature is due to the elderly, in the main, freewheeling through life.
    Perhaps I oversimplified my prior comments, what we remember is dependent on the measure of attention we give to an experience. We tend to give the most attention to those experiences that have a real, physical impact on our well-being. The part of our brain that promotes our attention to experiences of real consequence idles or powers down as we sleep because physical experience does not reach the sleeping brain the way it does when we are awake. Dreams are not experiences of true physical consequence; our brain perceives this distinction because it can detect when the body is not engaged in physical experience.

    As we age, inconsequential experiences garner less attention; we are less attentive to those experiences that have no material impact on our lives as we age. Therefore, dreams become increasingly difficult to remember as we get older without some belief in their consequence to life. Perhaps this explains why Wolfy continues to have good dream recall.

    Quote Originally Posted by ”Jennings”
    I am not fully convinced on the distinction you mentioned between imagination and noctural dreaming. When the imagination is given free reign (daydreaming) where is the dividing line outside neurology? If my libido is high then I daydream of having sexual encounters and whenever I retire and continue to feel the same way then I dream whilst asleep of the same sexual encounters. Both surely stem from the subconscious and possibly preceded by the unconscious or possibly the instinctual?
    Consider your description of dreams as a “universal language.” Would you agree that what we imagine while awake (daydreams) is not a language to be translated when we regain focus? Although the instinctual influences behind our dreams may also drive our imagination, I think our dreams are likely an interpretation of those influences rather than an immersion in those influences. I welcome your continued comments.

    DrmDoc
    Last edited by DrmDoc; 02-07-2008 at 09:27 PM.
    "Are you bored with life? Then throw yourself into some work you believe in with all your heart; live for it, die for it, and you will find happiness that you had thought could never be yours." Dale Carnegie

  10. #30
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    Quote by Jennings
    My question was, why should the meaning of dream be encoded in such an ambiguous manner when the language spoken in the dream is our native tongue. Even though its allegory and metaphors are universal why should its meaning not be made more explicit?

    Hi Jennings
    To make the meanings more explicit would take away our personal take on the dream, we sort out our dreams based on what our lifestyle, habits, and beliefs are, and since all of these traits change from person to person it is safe to say that metaphors provide a larger scape from which to interpret those dreams.

    ps: I was starting to wonder if had changed my name and forgot...........hahahahaha

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