A thought on dream interpretation (no actual intrp)

[BentOne25]

I found this site earlier today, and have been browsing through it little by little throughout the afternoon. I have come to the conclusion that one of the main factors of dream interpretation is cultural influence. Because the internet is a "World Wide" sort of thing, we've got all sorts of people on this forum from all sorts of cultural backgrounds.

I've noticed several posts by an administrator/mod (no name dropping) that are clear and direct. This symbol means this. That symbol means that. I was, personally, quite struck by the incongruity of the symbols with their meanings. I had no idea feces were a symbol for money! Then again, if you think about it, from a certain point of view they might be considered similiar.

Does a meaningful dream always follow a code of symbols? Sure, you read this and say, "of course not. Sometimes the symbol doesn't mean anything", but doesn't that depend on what culture you're from? Wouldn't an American interpret a dream about Asia invading America differently then say, an Asian? What about other symbols? Wouldn't a dream about nakedness mean different things to a nudist and a non-nudist? Even if they were the same symbol, they'd mean two different things to different folks. How can there be common symbols without a common base of experience?

There's more then likely a good explanation for it, and I'd like to give you all here at sleeps.com a shot at explanation.

- MG

[BentOne25]

edit: Sure, everyone knows what feces are, so I strayed off topic at the end there. There is a common core of experience with plenty of things. What I'm trying to say is some common symbols mean different things to different cultures.

[mythopoet]

Hi! I'm very new to the dream board as well! This means I've not commented before in any of the dream categories. I've just been reading. But, you do make a thoughtful point. Most of us have had strange and puzzling dreams and cannot imagine how we could have dreamt such a thing or have become frightened by something in a dream. We worry over dream meanings. This means we often consider our dreams from a certain dream perspective, that of meaning. Unless a dream is "useful" and "means", what good is it?

My own approach to dreams is often otherwise. I often sense a dream has no meaning intention in mind. Rather, a dream will have something archetypal and transforming -something alchemical and quite intricate in play. My own "interpretation" will work from an awareness distilled by many post modern scholars, artists, and mythologers today working anima-logical life. (I am a poet and a mythologist by degree)

It has been established the foundations of human psyche are grounded in a poetic basis of mind. Poetic here means "making with images". That is exactly how a dream does its talking. It is making the picture show up to tell a fiction. Reality is a ficting that helps us to make sense (meaning) of our lives.

At any time in the story a story can pause and one can say that it "means" something specific. But, that is not necessarrily the most important truth of dreams nor of dreaming itself. I like your thought and think it a valuable insight.

Many Blessings,
mythopoet

[blueberrysummer]

Hi what an interesting thread! just to add my views i believe that to only associate one meaning to a dream symbol is to limit its 'potential' of what the energy of the symbol is conveying. quite rightly I agree that symbols from different cultural perspectives can conjure up quite different meanings pending on ones association with that symbol, each symbol I believe holds a wealth of meaning and is fluid only until interpreted with the rational side of oneself, the old saying is a picture can paint a thousand words.

The unconsciousness and the dream consciousness expresses itself in imagery that lies beyond words and truly grasping the significnce of a dream symbol is much akin to the penny dropping, when something falls into place, though not complex either a symbol can penetrate into our awarness with the simplest of meanings. Taking the view point that all imagery is a reflection of ones internal thoughts, feelings, attitudes, behaviour, experiences and spirituality when reflected on can be very healing. from my own personal experience dreams have been very liberating and life changing helping me to understand more of who I am and what motivates me in life.

Happy dreaming
Marce

[BentOne25]

I'm glad you both have something to say about my thoughts.

If I understand Mythopoet correctly, he's trying to say that a dream is a poem or a "making with images". A dream is not determined to have a certain meaning, but that it makes up a fictitious poem as it goes along.

BlueBerrySummer seems to agree that symbols can have multiple cultural meanings, but that restricting a symbol to one of those meanings tends to rationalize and limit its potential.

Since I've said what I'm going to say about cultural symbols, I'd like to say a few words about symbols themselves.

Let's say I have a dream, and in this dream I am running away from something. I'm not sure what folks would interpret to mean, but I can guess it would mean "guilt" or something like that. Now imagine that I am naked from the waist up, and wearing my pajamas. If I recall correctly being naked is a symbol for some sort of pilgrimage. So would this dream mean I'm about to take a drastic turn in my life that causes me to take a pilgrimage to atone for my guilt? I know a dream shouldn't be restricted to just one meaning, but maybe that is ONE of many explanations.

Now let's take into consideration something else. Not just the symbols of a dream, but the Feelings, too. Imagine that while I'm running away half-naked, I feel apprehensive, afraid. That fits right along with my previous suggestion, that I am guilty of something. But what if instead I feel like giving up? Would that be a warning that the pilgrimage would be tough to follow through? Either way it fits in with the suggested interpretation. But what if I don't give a damn about being naked in my dream? What if I'm running, but I feel euphoric even as my pursuer catches and mutilates me? What if I'm running, but as soon as I lose him, I feel a sense of loss? What if I was suddenly wearing a full-bodied plate of armor? I would still be feeling guilty in my dream about leaving behind old friends ((the pursuer)), but I'd be wearing something. So am I actually guilty or am I not? I, personally, would trust the overall emotions and feelings of a dream rather then some preset explanations of symbols. I'm not saying symbols in dreams are never to be interpreted, but that they shouldn't be the main focus of an interpretation.

[blueberrysummer]

Hi there, I agree there as well Feelings in a dream have equally important significance. Using your example running away does tend to convey that one is running away from ones 'own' psychic element. That is to say that the person one is running away from, will often portray an aspect of oneself in relation to their behaviour and attitude, not to say that if it is a mad axeman one has similar tendencies but may be more descriptive of an inner rage that has remained repressed and is now threatening to overwhelm or devour the person. A persons response in the dream 'The dream ego' will convey ones own response pending on the feeling of being chased it may be fear of this overwhelming aspect, it may be guilt of ones own innerarge etc.

Symbols generally reflect psychic elements of our selves as the energy of each symbol ie (feelings, attitudes ,behaviour and metaphor) are generated by our own psyche. To use feaces as an example in which you mentioned earlier depending on its relation to other elements in the dream, may portray differnt meanings to different people, it may conjure up feelings of shame in some, where as it may be a reflection of psychic waste, or a letting go of emotional waste that does not serve us in other dreams again it depends on the context of the dream.

Honing ones intuition in understanding dreams gives the dream more freedom to express itself

Happy dreaming
Marce

[mythopoet]

Hello, Again!

Your commentaries are thoughtful ones!

When I liken the dream to a poem and a fiction it is to take away the ground-sense of any material substance. It is to take your mind away from the idea of the everyday and take your thinking into the realm of the mythic. Mythic reality is beyond being but not beyond existence -beyond be-ing in one or any being but not beyond be-ing itself. This is one reason why something mythic is no lie. And when it comes to the dream, the mythic and psychic dream substance belongs to neither that which is purely spiritual nor that which is material. This invisible and sometimes visible dimension of reality is a third mode of representation called 'soul'. One can say symbols are like ghosts. They haunt our conscious reality all the time.

I also want to share that what we have to say about our dreams and our sense for what our own dreams and the dreams of others mean or may mean, will tell more about our own dream psychology than it does what a dream symbol acutally 'means to mean', if it does at all. What you and I and others on this board will be sharing is actually a dream psychology!

My own dream psychology is poetic. It will try to gather together from many sources what gives an image in a dream its symbolic tone. (Funny, the one source I have never used is a dream dictionary. I hope that is not a prerequisite on this site!) The primary point is still the one each of us have agreed upon. The symbol is truly expressing what it is. Although this may have 'meaning' for us, the symbol in itself does not mean. It simply expresses isness.

Marce, I like your address to the feeling nature in the symbolic order. My own urge is to shake the term loose and further it from its attachment to anything egoic in a literalism, i.e. "my" feelings. That is, I get the sense for the word-image 'feelings' & as a complex structuring principle of image-ideas, that it has, the way you are expressing it here, its reflection in an image attached more to dayworld thinking and interests than it does to the night world of shadows. But, I also wouldn't say this is right or wrong thinking.

I think what it tells me tells me my psyche may require working dream imagery at a deeper, more psychic and less material level for dream analysis to be truly satisfying for me. For me, what you speak to here as ..."Symbols generally reflect psychic elements of our selves as the energy of each symbol ie (feelings, attitudes ,behaviour and metaphor)"... I would say belongs to a felt-sense in a dream-order of being. The Greeks use to call this order of being the Underworld and these images or eidola "shades".

But, here is how such thinking will go when shaken loose from egoic sense:

The shadow figures or shades we meet in dreams are not the people themselves (Jung's objective level), nor even are they their characterologic essence (Jung's subjective level), that is, my own traits (feelings, symbols, meatphors, etc) that I can integrate. My brother with whom I worry about my father's business in a dream is neither my actual brother nor the older, sombre, responsible traits that slow and weigh me down. My dream-brother, because he is now a shade in the underworld, is an eidola, a purely psychic form, and our interpretation of him must also make this move from the everyday to the mythic. -quoted from James Hillman, Dream and Underworld p59-60

What JH is saying is to get to the depth vision of the dream or "the all-embracing vision of the myth" one is not to project the feeling tones of the dream back over the bridge into the dream day; the world of my literal and material existence. When I do this, the dream ego casts a shadow behind it I cannot see. The dream tries to show me all the shades at once. The shade I cannot see becomes a literal shadow problem in my waking, dayworld state. It follows me back over the dream bridge and gets literalized in the ego part of my personality.

I often suspect what dreams help us do is dissolve our attitudes so we can see what has gone into their 'making' i.e. what 'makes them up.'

Nice strand of thought folks!

Bless,
mythopoet

(Oh, and I am a "she" in my literal state )

[BentOne25]

I could not ask for two more eloquent people with whom to discuss this topic. Both of you have a manner of writing that communicates your point of view quite well.

The minute I started browsing this forum, I saw that there were many dreams, but only a couple interpreters. The most prominent one, I believe, is Varzandeh(a moderater). She posts interpretations using some code of which I have no understanding.
http://www.sleeps.com/forums/prophetic-dreams/7779.htm]
It is her symbolism I refered to specifically in my first post. the reference she makes to feces and birds is what I was talking about. I thought I'd clarify that as a springboard for the rest of my post.

I don't believe it makes a whole lot of sense to cut the ego out of dream interpretation. I'm no phsychology major, but when I dream, the dream is about ME. I am hardly, if ever, a non-thing in my dreams. I believe any feelings in my dream are mine, rather then an objective, additional projection of my imagination. I realize parts of myself in my dreams that I can find during the day-hours once they are discovered.
Yes, I realize I'm making alot of "I" statements here. I say "I" because I have no way of being certain what other people dream about, or if they dream the same way. Based on the dreams I've seen told on this board, it seems that the majority of dreams are usually short and contain one, maybe two confrontations or symbols. Mine are long and drawn out, without too many vivid moments of symbolism. It's more about what story is being made and what feelings I have about certain events. In this way I agree with MythoPoet in that dreams are poems or "makings".
I thought it very interesting that perhaps my attitudes during the day are projections of a shadow from the shades of dreams. I hope I understood it correctly, because the first time I read it, chills ran through my spine. For quite awhile now, I've been convinced that dreams can affect reality. About a week ago I had a dream about, say, war and death, and in the dream neither one was as shocking as it should have been. The next day I began to notice a small, how shall I say this.....thread?...ripple?...Anyways it was something small that I noticed in how I viewed those two things. I wasn't more fearful of them. Instead, even though I have a healthy avoidance of such things, something deep inside feels like I would react the same way I did in my dream if I was confronted with them. It might or might not be true, but the vague feeling was there. That's not an extensive example, but it will do for now. Am I catching on to what you're trying to say, or did I completely miss the point?

I apologize for not making any sort of reply to BlueberrySummer's post. She just stated her view so clearly I have nothing to add at this moment, maybe tomorrow.

I'm totally slammed. Goodnight.

-MG

[mythopoet]

Hi- Thanks for the generous words of regard.

It was apparent to me that both you and Marce will interpret a dream along similar lines. I believe JH calls this line of logical psyche or dream psychology "Jung's subjective approach to the dream". (the me and mine of the dream) I also don't think there is a right way or wrong way when it comes to the various approaches to dreams. I think some will be more interesting than others and I think one needs to lay different interpretations side by side and go between them to turn what dream skins hide.

Yep, I think you are getting a difference between us. The importance of that will show through later if we go and offer an actual dream interpretation as Marce has already done. Since she began posting by posting here first and began by telling us how she approaches the dream, we know how to follow her through her lense in looking.

What I found interesting in your post just now MG is that little shiver, the body gesture or "chill". You see we do not have to believe in these things for their reality to take effect. We simply have to encounter them and become aware that we have. The little shiver or chill is a space of experience and I believe it may be likened to the space in which we experience a nonexperience i.e. a poetic experience of a dream attitude that goes into an "I" dreaming us. The physical sign, the shiver is responsive to the psychological truth without any interpretation needed. Or you could say, the medium is the message. The realm of the dream, according to the Greeks is the realm of Hades or Aidoneus or the eidola (shades). To get to the eidola level of seeing, one's habitual mode of consciousness must be shaken loose from its attachment to conscious residence in an egoic "I".

Thanks again for sharing your point of view. I'm looking forward to reading your interpretive dream posts.

Bless,
mythopoet

[Jacqui]

I kind of agree with the OP. While I do think certain symbols can share a general meaning to most people, especially when they relate to time passing, all in all I believe the only way to correctly interpret a dream is to look at the context in which the symbol is used.

Two nights ago I had a dream involving an eclipse. According to one site, an eclipse symbolizes losing confidence in yourself and your abilities, and thinking you won't succeed at achieving a dream. This made complete and total sense when I considered the context in which the eclipse appeared. The whole dream was, essentially, about me thinking I had achieved a personal goal in life, only to have everything around me fall apart at the seams as a result. I then checked the dream dictionary here, which told me that an eclipse means I'll have health problems in the near future.

Here's the thing: I believe dreams reveal things about our 'now'. Our desires, our fears, our thoughts, our feelings, etc. While I believe prophetic dreams can and do occur, I generally don't think that dreams predict our future. I know which moderator you're referring to, and I know exactly what you're talking about. Most of the interpretations given here are clear, precise and broad definitions that, nine times out of ten, state that this particular symbol means this particular thing is going to happen to the dreamer in the future. And I don't find this way of “analysing” to be correct.

I think that in order to get accurate interpretations, we must know the context of the dream. The context of how one certain symbol fits in with the rest of the dream, and the context of the dreamer themself. HOWEVER, like I stated above, I do think there are some symbols that can apply the same meaning to a lot of people. Probably not all, but at the very least a majority. Our subconscious is capable of much more than we are consciously aware of, and I think the human brain has ways of communicating thoughts in our sleep that may not be explicitly individualistic. That is to say, I don’t find it impossible that if two people live in a similar (eg Western) society and are subjected to similar social patterns and conditions, a code of symbols could be created. But, all in all, I do believe that in order to achieve an accurate analysis of a dream one must look at context. It should always be taken into account that things have different meanings to different people. I don’t believe we should be rattling off a list of what this object means and that event symbolizes without studying the relationship such objects and events have with each other in each individual dream.