The Anti-Christ/(messiah) is HERE?!

[sarahsimagination]

the bible was written by man, not by God dumb dumb. The anti christ is a figment of your imaginations. Its like saying the monster in the closet exists and there was a book, code, and what not...

[inphanta]

We'll have to agree to disagree on some points, though ironically, I don't think what you or I are saying on minor points is really that different. I think our wires are getting crossed in places.

Originally Posted by IrisRavenstar

Hi inphanta,
I just don't agree about what you say about behaving negatively towards another, because I think it's a karmic lesson thing, in that if someone does something hurtful, they may *need* to be responded to in kind in order to *see* what they are doing to others. I don't think it's so black and white as to think that just not doing anything negative to them will fix the problem. It rarely does, especially when dealing with people who are chronically abusive.

True, but I never said it was that "black and white". What I was trying to say (and attempted to clarify in my previous post) was that behaving positively in a situation is always better than behaving negatively if possible.

I wasn't saying you should go around being nice to people who continually behave in a crappy manner towards you and not react. That's not what I meant at all.

We're really not in a position to judge even someone as heinous as Hitler, or to know where he went after his death, are we? I don't know what life experiences made him what he was. I can't even judge whether he did what he did because it was what he was supposed to do in order to provide lessons for the many. I don't know where Adolph Hitler went, or what he went through. I do know my brother, who committed suicide via a cocaine overdose while at sea on a fishing boat, unable to reach shore to save him, went to a place that was therapeutic, where he had people to help him heal from his experiences here. I'm not saying it was easy, but there was certainly love there, and light. He was a drug addict, and also was in remission from bone cancer when he died. Part of his lessons since his death have included having to watch over the people who loved him, and see the effects his death had on each one... this is part of his ongoing karmic lessons, which do not end with death. Watching my mother was probably a form of Hell for him, I've no doubt, and she took his death very hard, and a light went out inside her. She developed a problem with prescription tranquillizers and alcohol, mixing them so that I wouldn't let her drive when with her. She stopped doing all the things she loved, and retreated from life, and was very depressed, and finally died of cancer herself at way too young an age. It had to be hard for Tom to watch that. I've been told that he liked watching me though, because his death was in great part the impetus for me to gain a much deeper spirituality.

I'm very sorry for what your brother went through, but your brother and Hitler are hardly comparable.

What you say above about him having to see the consequences of his suicide is exactly what I was talking about. I also mentioned that it is religious dogma that labours under the assumption that people who commit suicide are "hellbound", but this is not necessarily the case, as I said above when I said:

Originally Posted by me

Also, contrary to some religious dogma, people who commit suicide do not "go to hell" as (again) near death research shows. A soul's afterlife state is determined by the spiritual state of the soul in question. There is a whole section on that site I linked you to about suicidal NDEs and they are largely positive or should I say compassionate.

I don't believe in hell as a place, or a situation, where there is no light or love available, not at all. God loves all of us, and always will.

I never said otherwise.

Originally Posted by me

It's not so much punishment as realisation that they have been their own worst enemy by putting themselves in such a place because of their own choices (it's all about free will). The ultimate purpose is for cleansing in order for that soul to eventually return to the light, but that may take a very long time. Eventually these souls do find the light again an are reincarnated (i.e. given another chance).

This would not be possible if God didn't live them.

And that doesn't mean that things will all be rosy after death. But it doesn't mean it's all black and white and serial killers and rapists are treated to some form of hell, necessarily, either. But watching their victims and their victims loved ones probably becomes a personal hell for them.

Again, this was my point. This is precisely what I am referring to with regards to "hell".

I have not had any real experience with earthbound spirits, other than what I've read. My brother isn't what I'd term that at all, and he was severely addicted to drugs. So, I don't know what to say to that. I go mostly by my own experience. He visits when he's close by waiting for another family member to cross over. That's what my family members do. Mostly, they are out of my sight unless another family member is dying, or they need to get a message to me for some reason. I talk mostly to my guides and angels.

From what you say I'm sure he isn't, but every case is different.

But the stance on celibacy is more complex than your picture of it. It wasn't arbitrary. It is related to "original sin" being perceived as sex! There is also the idea, especially with Gnostics, that we have to become what we're supposed to be while we are here, in these bodies, not that we're going to become perfected after death, but that we have to gain what we're supposed to gain while we're in the body, in order to move up to a higher plane. Think about that! How would that change what you do in life? You can't just say, I can do it now, because I'm subject to these cravings in this body. It really doesn't work that way.

I know about the Original Sin issue, but this was a belief of a particular Christian sect as was the Gnostic view of transcending all aspects of matter and physicality whilst in the body. This was their belief. Mine is that whilst in the body we are human, and that sex is not wicked, evil or wrong.

Again, I think we are agreed on most point but seem to be getting confused on minor issues surrounding them. Either way, this is easily the most engaging discussion I've had on here.

[IrisRavenstar]

Hi inphanta,

Sorry I didn't make it over to this section yesterday... I kept getting my online time interrupted by thunderstorms, loud noisy ones! I think we've got a possibility of some later today too... I don't know who stole summer up here this year, probably the poor states with triple digit heat waves. I haven't even had to put my A/C in yet, and last year, I put it in on June 1. At least it's saving money and energy!

I think you're probably right, that we are saying a lot of the same basic things.

There's an interesting book I happened to be reminded of in another thread yesterday, _The Lovely Bones_ by Alice Sebold. It's a novel about a young woman, a teenager, who is raped and murdered, and she stays an earthbound spirit, watching over her family and her rapist-murderer. It's a really rather amazing story, written from the point of view of the dead girl. I thought it a rather fascinating concept that the *victim* could learn lessons too, from watching after death. So, there may really be more of that going on than we know!

Originally Posted by inphanta

I know about the Original Sin issue, but this was a belief of a particular Christian sect as was the Gnostic view of transcending all aspects of matter and physicality whilst in the body. This was their belief. Mine is that whilst in the body we are human, and that sex is not wicked, evil or wrong.

I can't say that. I look around and see the uncurbed growth in human population is killing the planet. Happy as I may be to have a cute new grand daughter, at the same time, I have never *wished* for grandchildren, feeling that at some point, we need to stop reproducing with no conscience or consciousness. There are people starving all over this globe. There are people living in cardboard shacks as close as Tijuana, Mexico. Even here in the U.S. there are people for who there is no room even in a shelter, setting up tents in parks. Sex may be wicked, evil, and wrong, for HUMANS, unless we use our brains to set limits. But how... it would just be a war, for sure, to try to enforce it. I think China currently limits families to one child though, to try to reduce the population.

Then I look at human trafficking that goes on, and prostitution, and sado-masochism, and incest, and rape, and child molesters. In my own marriage, my ex was a serial adulterer. I hated it. I don't care about sex. I'd rather live without it, in a world without it. And I believe that in order to get to that world without it, I have to make that choice now; I have to live as if for me, it's not there. I'm not overwhelmed with any cravings. I just want it, and all the pain I see coming from it, to go away.

I have dreamed another way of making love that involves joining chakra energy, two lovers, sitting with legs entwined, and all their chakras lit together, making a rainbow of light between them, and I have felt what it's like, and it's beautiful. It's different than sex, it's not lust; it's LOVE. I think that is our future... but only if we choose to let go of our past.

Those who wish to keep having sex also are choosing to remain in the rounds of reincarnation back into the earth plane. That is what I believe.

Originally Posted by inphanta

Again, I think we are agreed on most point but seem to be getting confused on minor issues surrounding them. Either way, this is easily the most engaging discussion I've had on here.

Yes, I agree this is an interesting discussion. I always like discussions. I'm glad they provided an area for free discussion. That was very smart of them!

I expect my ideas on what constitutes a minor issue may not be the same as yours though.

[inphanta]

Originally Posted by IrisRavenstar

Hi inphanta,

Sorry I didn't make it over to this section yesterday... I kept getting my online time interrupted by thunderstorms, loud noisy ones! I think we've got a possibility of some later today too... I don't know who stole summer up here this year, probably the poor states with triple digit heat waves. I haven't even had to put my A/C in yet, and last year, I put it in on June 1. At least it's saving money and energy!

Well whoever stole your summer took ours as well by the looks of it. It's been pretty cloudy where I am too. We've had the odd storm here and there as well, but then again our summers for the last 3 years have been a washout too.

There's an interesting book I happened to be reminded of in another thread yesterday, _The Lovely Bones_ by Alice Sebold. It's a novel about a young woman, a teenager, who is raped and murdered, and she stays an earthbound spirit, watching over her family and her rapist-murderer. It's a really rather amazing story, written from the point of view of the dead girl. I thought it a rather fascinating concept that the *victim* could learn lessons too, from watching after death. So, there may really be more of that going on than we know!

Hmm... this sounds like another interesting book. Maybe someone should start a thread for book recommendations!

I can't say that. I look around and see the uncurbed growth in human population is killing the planet. Happy as I may be to have a cute new grand daughter, at the same time, I have never *wished* for grandchildren, feeling that at some point, we need to stop reproducing with no conscience or consciousness. There are people starving all over this globe. There are people living in cardboard shacks as close as Tijuana, Mexico. Even here in the U.S. there are people for who there is no room even in a shelter, setting up tents in parks. Sex may be wicked, evil, and wrong, for HUMANS, unless we use our brains to set limits. But how... it would just be a war, for sure, to try to enforce it. I think China currently limits families to one child though, to try to reduce the population.

Then I look at human trafficking that goes on, and prostitution, and sado-masochism, and incest, and rape, and child molesters. In my own marriage, my ex was a serial adulterer. I hated it. I don't care about sex. I'd rather live without it, in a world without it. And I believe that in order to get to that world without it, I have to make that choice now; I have to live as if for me, it's not there. I'm not overwhelmed with any cravings. I just want it, and all the pain I see coming from it, to go away.

I hear everything you're saying and I'm sorry for your own unfortunate experiences. However, I do not think the problem can be reasonably blamed on the act of copulation itself. On a purely functional level, it serves the purpose of reproduction, beyond that it is simply a part of attraction. Yes, it has been misused and abused by some very sick individuals but it is them choosing to do so. The existence of the act of sex itself didn't create the problem. The problem is created by people not in control of their lower beastly natures. Not only that, but loving, mutual consensual sexual relations between two people is a beautiful, natural thing. It is not the same thing as rape or abuse at all.

If one desires asceticism it is entirely their prerogative, but I don't think it's either realistic or fair to expect that of everyone. And we'd not have much of a population at all if we did.

[IrisRavenstar]

Originally Posted by inphanta

I hear everything you're saying and I'm sorry for your own unfortunate experiences. However, I do not think the problem can be reasonably blamed on the act of copulation itself. On a purely functional level, it serves the purpose of reproduction, beyond that it is simply a part of attraction. Yes, it has been misused and abused by some very sick individuals but it is them choosing to do so. The existence of the act of sex itself didn't create the problem. The problem is created by people not in control of their lower beastly natures. Not only that, but loving, mutual consensual sexual relations between two people is a beautiful, natural thing. It is not the same thing as rape or abuse at all.

If one desires asceticism it is entirely their prerogative, but I don't think it's either realistic or fair to expect that of everyone. And we'd not have much of a population at all if we did.

Well, I'm not really talking about asceticism, which denies all sensual pleasure and even includes self-flaggelation and absurd deprivation. I don't mean that at all! I love my sensual pleasures, and enjoy them lavishly. Most of them are very healing, using herbs and oils that are wonderful.

I'm talking about a matter of conscience and consciousness of what's going on on this planet! Yes, part of bringing me to that conscious state was personal experience, but when I cry constantly over the news because there is so much pain and hunger and deprivation out there that was never chosen, I have to pay attention. Ascetism comes from people who've made the choice of celibacy for the wrong reasons, just because it's expected, or they expect it to give them power. Then they're overwhelmed by desire, and feel all this guilt, and that's where beating themselves with torture devices and wearing hair shirts and living in a bleak barren environment comes from. Guilt. I don't fee guilt, you see, because I made the choice for celibacy to stop being part of the problem, and instead become part of the solution.

If we don't stop procreating, we just keep going rounds on this planet. And it's going to go through some hard times. If we don't blow ourselves up, we will experience what the rest of Nature does... we're a problem for all the other species here because we just keep on multiplying. When God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, He knew that we'd come to this, and He knew that some would have their eyes opened. Nature is a harsh teacher. Disease and disaster will decimate the population if we don't learn to stop. Other species have become extinct after all.

The attraction is gone for me, you see? Because the pain outweighs it. And because I find other ways to satisfy myself in my life; I'm not a toy for some sex addict anymore, and I don't have to live my life to suit some guy's desire to have a satellite that circles around him 24/7. I can do what I want, when I please, and I like that! I have a lovely longhaired affectionate little dog, and I have a garden, and a house, and lots of stuff of my own choosing in the house. And I'm doing okay! I meditate not on a cold hard floor in an uncomfortable position, but leaning back in my recliner wearing a chilled lavender-scented eye mask, with more lavender on my white candle, and relaxing music playing. I fix my own meals most of the time, as I love to cook, and they can be lavish with herbs and healthy flavor, like my take on the Egg McMuffin I just ate, which is on a wholegrain English muffin with savory soya sausage, jalapeno cheese, onion and pepper, and lovely Rosemary, Marjoram, and Basil to tingle the senses. There's no asceticism here.

Just a choice to stop being part of the major problem that is killing the planet. That's all.

"Use it or lose it"... I want to LOSE IT! It was a conscious choice with many reasons behind it. I'm not suffering from lack of sex, not one iota.

And honey, sex is *part* of the beastly nature. It is not natural for us at all, and that's why we get so conflicted over it. Someday, I guess God will need to hold up a sign that says, "It's time to stop now." Oh, wait, he did that already... he sent Al Gore to do it! Haha!