The Anti-Christ/(messiah) is HERE?!

[inphanta]

Originally Posted by IrisRavenstar

Dear Inphanta,

Thank you for that well-thought-out and well-written post! You must be a writer!

Thanks. I actually wrote that hurriedly at work, believe it or not. That said, a LOT of people in my life have told me I should be a writer but I'm not (I do a bit of writing for a magazine but that's about it). I'm seriously considering a career change now as I've heard it too often!

The one thing I don't understand in your post, is the reference to conspiracy theories re: Freemasons. I see them around from time to time, and always find them puzzling, because I grew up with a stepfather who was a Mason. My ex's father was a Shriner, and my ex was a Mason for awhile, ultimately dropping it over the issue that they would not allow blacks to join at that time, though I think they do now. It's always been a WASP group, really, White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, no minorities, no Catholics, even. But I was a Rainbow Girl as a teen, and I feel that it set me on a path of a more mystical spirituality, and a more open-minded spirituality, than I would have had if I'd only based my spirituality on what I learned in a Baptist Church, which I attended with a friend's family. Mine weren't really into religion at all. My view of my dad as a Mason was really more like it was a men's club than anything else, though I know they did rituals, but the rituals were more mystical and ceremonial, though not related to a specific religion. I don't remember any plots to overtake the world or anything like that. Rainbow Girls was fun... we wore long gowns for our meetings, and I remember had to go through a sort of hazing when we first joined, which included being told we had to walk through worms, which were actually cold spaghetti... LOL! I just never get it when I hear the conspiracy buffs go on about Freemasons. My dad would go out with friends after meetings to a place called the Rathskellar, which had a steam room and he loved that. Then he'd come home, all relaxed and I think for him, it was just a big change of pace from commercial fishing, and much needed male bonding.

My grandfather on my mother's side was also a Mason too but either way, from what I have read, it is a society with many layers and levels and what happens in the upper ranks is unknown to those beneath them which suggests your stepfather may not have even known about the other stuff. I'm by no means a "conspiracy buff", but I do believe there is more to the world than we are being told.

I'm with you about mystical spirituality though. From the background I had, I was made to believe that anything that pointed towards mysticism or magic was evil or satanic, but I now realise this is nonsense (I never, years ago would've imagined myself meditating or talking first hand about out of body experiences and such as I do now). My view is that magic is just energy and the only differentiating factor is intention. In essence the power of magic and the power of "prayer" that the religious talk about are the same thing.

I also genuinely believe in past lives and reincarnation, but that is not for this forum so I won't go into it here.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, Catholics ARE Christians, they even consider themselves the original ones, with the Apostolic Succession which they feel is necessary. To them, the Protestants are the fakes, though the Anglicans, and their offshoots the Episcopalians, claim to be part of the Apostolic Succession too. To Protestants, Mormons are the fakes. ARGH! It does rather go on and on! Personally, I think Gnostics came before Catholics, and were murdered as heretics by them, and we lost a lot because of it, though much resurfaced in the past century. It's crazy though, the fighting over differences instead of learning to share the similarities... it's in the similarities that I think we find the real truth, and that goes beyond even all these Christian sects, and to other religions as well. I learn a lot from studying other religions, and even gain more insight into Christian teaching from it. I puzzle over why people WANT to bring on the End of the World.

Again, thank you... I agree with pretty much the rest of what you wrote!

Well I never said Christians weren't Catholics, but they do like to differentiate themselves. Either way, it's all splitting hairs as far as I've come to see it so it's a non-issue to me.

And yes, I can't understand why anyone would want to bring on the end of the world, particularly when no-one is even promised tomorrow in this life. I am of the opinion that the "end of the world" happens when YOU die.

The other day some Jehovah's Witnesses put a tract through my letterbox entitled "How to Survive the Coming End Of The World" headed by a picture of fine, upstanding white bred suburbanites holding hands whilst climbing a mountain backed by fire and brimstone. I think it's incredibly sad to see souls waste a whole lifetime looking forward to some kind of tragic armageddon, deferring any sort of life in the present whilst looking forward to some kind of child-like, man-made future "paradise" scenario.

[IrisRavenstar]

Hi Inphanta,

I think anything they're saying about Freemasonry is pretty out there, as I said, and my former father-in-law was a Shriner, like 32nd degree, I think. He was very involved, but not the world domination type at all. I remember him taking us to the Shrine Circus one year! Conspiracy buffs kind of creep me out, and only seem to foster fear in people. I'm sure that doesn't mean that some weirdos who want to dominate the world might not also be members of a Masonic lodge... I'm just saying I don't think it's what Freemasonry is about. I've read books on it too, and I think they're there to promote mysticism more than anything else, and to have a nice little men's club. There are even lodges that allow women now, instead of them having separate groups as the Eastern Star.

Yes, magic and psychic gifts are tools... it's how we use the tools that matters. This is made clear in the Bible in 1st Corinthians 12-14. Gifts of the Spirit are to be used from a place of LOVE, to help and heal and build up others, not to harm or control or manipulate. Too many Christians yack about them without obviously *experiencing* them, so they think it means something other than psychic or magical gifts, which is weird, and only serves to alienate people because they can't see past the terminology and to the meaning.

Well, you know, the world is changing, becoming more open to spirituality and to talking about it, and I believe it's related to that outpouring of Spirit on all mankind the Bible makes reference to, where your old men will dream dreams, and your young men will see visions. It had to happen! We have to make East meet West in the religious sense, because they've been separated too long. I see it as each religion having pieces of the puzzle, with a lot of error mixed in (for everyone, including Christians), but we kind of have to share and communicate if we're ever to put the puzzle together. Taking a rigid stance and screaming at people about Satan won't do it!

Yes, prayer is magic too, for sure. I think though that it's important to have an understanding or concept of God/dess or Holy Spirit, or Great Spirit that you know enough to *respect*... some religions seem to see Spirit as something they control, rather than respect. And I think things go amiss when that's the case.

Actually, there's no reason you can't talk about past lives and reincarnation in this area, as it's set up for chit-chat about *anything* at all. So talk away! I believe in reincarnation, but I also believe in graduating off the Earth plane and moving up to a more stable environment, without war, disease, disaster, etc., but that we have to be mature enough to sustain that environment before we get to go there. If we're not, then we do another round here and work on more new lessons. We are not, imo, magically turned perfect when we die. We have to learn and grow here, in an environment that's designed for that purpose.

You said: I am of the opinion that the "end of the world" happens when YOU die.

Do you mean it happens for each individual when they themselves die? Unless you think you're just a figment of MY imagination, and I'm the only real person there is! I don't think that when I die it will be the end of the world for me, necessarily. I may be plunked directly back into it, in a new role, as I dreamed my mother was. I may be compelled to stick around and watch the effects my life and my choice to suicide had on my loved ones, as my brother was and still, I believe is, as he talks to me from the other side at times. I may simply choose to stay and watch over loved ones until it's their time to cross over. I think there are many options about what happens when we die, and it's not all so simple as it's all our own choice. There really is a Higher Power, there really is a Karmic Justice system in place. We will all progress at our own pace, and ultimately, we will ALL graduate to a higher place, but it may take many lifetimes for us to all get there.

I don't think Jehovah's Witnesses are all white though... the two at my door the other day were both black, possibly a grandmother/granddaughter, as the woman seemed about my age, the girl with her about twelve. They always come around by twos. The priest at the Episcopal Church I used to attend, thirty some years ago, used to dance around all excited about the End of the World, which he was convinced was coming any day! I dropped in for awhile a couple of years ago, and he's still just as convinced, but is dancing less. That church scared me! The priest is a Jew who converted to Christianity in his thirties, and really has more a Southern Baptist mindset. He's planning to convert the whole Episcopal Church to his point of view, which is extremely Fundamentalist. He's always in the news, in trouble with the Bishop over his public stance on gay rights and gays in the ministry, etc. I didn't visit for long, as I knew I'd be in a fight all the time. At the time, their website had all this lurid red satin looking backgrounds, and before I'd visited the site, I dreamed of red satin with the word PAIN superimposed on it, and did not get it until I saw the site. There were so many undercurrents in that church, and he was always very dominating of his parishioners and his wife. It all pretty much creeped me out.

Well, I'm off to try to look at some dreams... the sky is darkening up again, and my cable tv is mostly out... I gather nearby Mystic is flooded, as are other places. We've got two more days of this too! Flood watches, thunder and lightning, etc. Lucky me, up at the top of Christy Hill, where it's not flooded, and I guess I can read or watch a movie if the tv doesn't come back! I might have to get offline again if the thunder comes back though! Books are good! I'm reading a Gnostic study at present. Interesting ideas in it, for sure.

Take care.... I'll check back later!

[inphanta]

Hey, it's great talking to you even if we have hijacked a thread, but hey it wasn't going anywhere constructive anyway!

Originally Posted by IrisRavenstar

Conspiracy buffs kind of creep me out, and only seem to foster fear in people.

I do agree. One of my good friends is into a lot of this and whilst some of his observations/theories are interesting there is also some stuff that I think it W-A-Y off and smacks more of paranoia than anything rational.

Either way, I'm the kind of person that likes to keep an open mind; I listen to what people have to say from across the spectrum and synthesise my own view based on that.

Yes, magic and psychic gifts are tools... it's how we use the tools that matters. This is made clear in the Bible in 1st Corinthians 12-14. Gifts of the Spirit are to be used from a place of LOVE, to help and heal and build up others, not to harm or control or manipulate. Too many Christians yack about them without obviously *experiencing* them, so they think it means something other than psychic or magical gifts, which is weird, and only serves to alienate people because they can't see past the terminology and to the meaning.

Yup. Christians also love to point out the Levitical laws forbidding clairvoyant/psychic activity and such to support their anti-mystical stance whilst ignoring that those Levitical codes specifically applied to a sect of Jewish priests that predated Christianity anyway! As you say, it's all about love.

Well you know, the world is changing, becoming more open to spirituality and to talking about it, and I believe it's related to that outpouring of Spirit on all mankind the Bible makes reference to, where your old men will dream dreams, and your young men will see visions. It had to happen! We have to make East meet West in the religious sense, because they've been separated too long. I see it as each religion having pieces of the puzzle, with a lot of error mixed in (for everyone, including Christians), but we kind of have to share and communicate if we're ever to put the puzzle together. Taking a rigid stance and screaming at people about Satan won't do it!

Agreed.

I've always been baffled by Christianity's suspicion of eastern religions anyway, particularly given that the roots of Christianity are eastern, unless they really believe the Romanised, Westernised Christianity to be the "only way", which is both arrogant and ignorant.

Actually, there's no reason you can't talk about past lives and reincarnation in this area, as it's set up for chit-chat about *anything* at all. So talk away! I believe in reincarnation, but I also believe in graduating off the Earth plane and moving up to a more stable environment, without war, disease, disaster, etc., but that we have to be mature enough to sustain that environment before we get to go there.

I agree somewhat though I feel we come back as other ego selves to learn lessons, resolve karma and help others. Like I said in my first post in this thread, I believe we are all responsible for each other. Some Buddhists believe there is only collective, rather than individual Karma, which somewhat alludes to this principle, but I happen to think there is both personal and collective and that they feed into each other; what we do individually affects others and ultimately the whole, which is why I say we are all responsible for each other in the end. That being the case, sometimes the reason for choosing to come back could be to help others. There are souls on earth who I think serve this purpose.

An example of such a soul can be found here. This individual, I believe is an incredibly advanced soul that has come here to help advance others. Her talent and wise words being as they are way beyond her years pretty much shows it. Obviously, it's filtered through her own cultural lens and some people cannot see past that, but I feel to do so is failing to see the forest for the trees.

If we're not, then we do another round here and work on more new lessons. We are not, imo, magically turned perfect when we die. We have to learn and grow here, in an environment that's designed for that purpose.

Again, I agree with you.

You said: I am of the opinion that the "end of the world" happens when YOU die.

Do you mean it happens for each individual when they themselves die? Unless you think you're just a figment of MY imagination, and I'm the only real person there is! I don't think that when I die it will be the end of the world for me, necessarily. I may be plunked directly back into it, in a new role, as I dreamed my mother was. I may be compelled to stick around and watch the effects my life and my choice to suicide had on my loved ones, as my brother was and still, I believe is, as he talks to me from the other side at times. I may simply choose to stay and watch over loved ones until it's their time to cross over. I think there are many options about what happens when we die, and it's not all so simple as it's all our own choice. There really is a Higher Power, there really is a Karmic Justice system in place. We will all progress at our own pace, and ultimately, we will ALL graduate to a higher place, but it may take many lifetimes for us to all get there.

Well I obviously meant the world "ends" when you as an individual die and not you personally as that would not make any sense.

Anyway, obviously as a believer in reincarnation as stated above, I don't think that's it completely, but as far as that particular ego self is concerned, it is. The soul will return, but the ego form will not, so in that sense, it is the end for that form.

I also agree with all your points about Karmic Justice. To that I'd also add that I believe the only "judgement" that awaits is self judgement, not a wrathful, petty dogmatic god waiting to throw people into eternal torment over technicalities.

I don't think Jehovah's Witnesses are all white though... the two at my door the other day were both black, possibly a grandmother/granddaughter, as the woman seemed about my age, the girl with her about twelve. They always come around by twos. The priest at the Episcopal Church I used to attend, thirty some years ago, used to dance around all excited about the End of the World, which he was convinced was coming any day! I dropped in for awhile a couple of years ago, and he's still just as convinced, but is dancing less. That church scared me! The priest is a Jew who converted to Christianity in his thirties, and really has more a Southern Baptist mindset. He's planning to convert the whole Episcopal Church to his point of view, which is extremely Fundamentalist. He's always in the news, in trouble with the Bishop over his public stance on gay rights and gays in the ministry, etc. I didn't visit for long, as I knew I'd be in a fight all the time. At the time, their website had all this lurid red satin looking backgrounds, and before I'd visited the site, I dreamed of red satin with the word PAIN superimposed on it, and did not get it until I saw the site. There were so many undercurrents in that church, and he was always very dominating of his parishioners and his wife. It all pretty much creeped me out.

You got me wrong. I wasn't suggesting JW's are all white (I have also met plenty who are not), it was more of an allusion to that artist's representation of "typical" fine, upstanding JW's (which is to say "saved" people), but it was more of an aside anyway.

But yes, some of these domineering so-called men of god are certainly "colourful" people. I've been doing a lot of reading on near death experiences, and read one from a southern baptist who actually found himself in a hell dimesion in spite of all his perceived piety. It completely changed his outlook.

Again, nice speaking to you again!

[IrisRavenstar]

Originally Posted by inphanta

Hey, it's great talking to you even if we have hijacked a thread, but hey it wasn't going anywhere constructive anyway!

I think so too! You know how to have a real discussion! Actually, what we're both saying probably sounds a lot like Maitreya, more so than what was going on before.

Originally Posted by inphanta

I do agree. One of my good friends is into a lot of this and whilst some of his observations/theories are interesting there is also some stuff that I think it W-A-Y off and smacks more of paranoia than anything rational.

Yes, paranoia is a better word than fear! I was on a list that was supposed to be prophetic dreams, but was all conspiracy plots, and I felt physically sick while there, so left! If these guys want to point out something Satanic, look at the conspiracy plots. They do nothing but bring people down.

Originally Posted by inphanta

Either way, I'm the kind of person that likes to keep an open mind; I listen to what people have to say from across the spectrum and synthesise my own view based on that.

I like a quote from Jackie Gleason: "Keep an open mind; something useful might fall in!"

Originally Posted by inphanta

Yup. Christians also love to point out the Levitical laws forbidding clairvoyant/psychic activity and such to support their anti-mystical stance whilst ignoring that those Levitical codes specifically applied to a sect of Jewish priests that predated Christianity anyway! As you say, it's all about love.

Well, yes, that was part of my problem with the Jewish priest at my old church; it was way too Old Testament, seeing evil everywhere, begging God to "smite mine enemies" every other minute. I remember laughing one night when I went there, as the church had a large population of Messianic Jews, and they had a regular Friday evening service in the chapel... a smaller version of the main sanctuary. I went to that service sometimes, as it used guitar music from a group called the Fisherfolk (Episcopal group from Texas), and I loved the music, all very uplifting and beautiful. But this one night, the priest was away with his wife on a trip to Greece, and one of the parishioners was standing in, and every time they'd do a scripture reading, he'd say, "Now, listen to the words!" And all the passages that night included "Smite mine enemies." Jesus would have cringed, and the guy who took over the service knew that!

In passages in the Old Testament where witchcraft is condemned, like where it says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," the word "witch" is more accurately translated as "poisoner." This was dark magic, used to harm and even kill others, this was not healing and prophecy and the other things that Jesus did, although it uses the same psychic (or in the science community "psi") gifts/abilities. The tools are the same; only the user's intent makes the difference. You might as well condemn a knife because someone used one to kill a person instead of just to cut up his salad greens.

Originally Posted by inphanta

I've always been baffled by Christianity's suspicion of eastern religions anyway, particularly given that the roots of Christianity are eastern, unless they really believe the Romanised, Westernised Christianity to be the "only way", which is both arrogant and ignorant.

As far as the Bible is concerned, Jesus pretty much disappears off the radar from age 12, when he was studying with rabbis in the Temple, and age 30, when he began his ministry. There are a lot of theories about where he spent those missing eighteen years. Certainly, he could have been studying any number of religions, including Buddhism. I have a lovely book of the parallel sayings of Jesus and Buddha. One has to understand that Buddha lived five hundred years *before* Jesus, and then can see who influenced whom! But I don't think these sayings were Jesus' most important gift to us... I think it was the way he pointed the way to the Holy Spirit, the Indwelling Spirit, right inside of us. He told the disciples, "I have to leave you now so that the Holy Spirit can come within you." While he was still there, they would not look inside and find the Spirit, the teacher on the inside. It was a gift for all of us, if we only learn it!

[IrisRavenstar]

Originally Posted by inphanta

I agree somewhat though I feel we come back as other ego selves to learn lessons, resolve karma and help others. Like I said in my first post in this thread, I believe we are all responsible for each other. Some Buddhists believe there is only collective, rather than individual Karma, which somewhat alludes to this principle, but I happen to think there is both personal and collective and that they feed into each other; what we do individually affects others and ultimately the whole, which is why I say we are all responsible for each other in the end. That being the case, sometimes the reason for choosing to come back could be to help others. There are souls on earth who I think serve this purpose.

Oh, I agree about coming back to help others, and also that one can serve as a spirit guide for the same purpose, as I know personally that my guide Leslie is doing that for me! He says we've known each other a loooong time, and while I don't remember that yet, I do believe it! I believe in both personal and collective karma too, I think, but perhaps not in the same way, as I'm into being very observant of how it plays out in people's lives around me, sometimes almost instantly. Which is a good thing, really, because it gives you some control over what happens to you, in the sense that you can choose to DO THE RIGHT THING, and then positive things come back to you. You don't even have to be all altruistic about either... you can do it for the express purpose of reaping what you sow.

Originally Posted by inphanta

An example of such a soul can be found here. This individual, I believe is an incredibly advanced soul that has come here to help advance others. Her talent and wise words being as they are way beyond her years pretty much shows it. Obviously, it's filtered through her own cultural lens and some people cannot see past that, but I feel to do so is failing to see the forest for the trees.

Is she an artist? I recognize the name! I will go and look after I post this, as I haven't been there in quite awhile. I remember her paintings are beautiful.

Originally Posted by inphanta

Well I obviously meant the world "ends" when you as an individual die and not you personally as that would not make any sense.

Well, it would make sense if everything I'm experiencing is JUST my dream! I mean, after all, I can never be 100% sure that's not the case!

Originally Posted by inphanta

Anyway, obviously as a believer in reincarnation as stated above, I don't think that's it completely, but as far as that particular ego self is concerned, it is. The soul will return, but the ego form will not, so in that sense, it is the end for that form.

Have you read books by Brian Weiss, M.D.? He's a psychiatrist who accidently happened onto past lives while attempting to regress a patient back to her childhood, but all he said to her was to access her "earliest memory," and she went waaay back before her current childhood. He's since gotten to be quite an expert in that area, and he's on my mind because he was a guest on The View this morning. They hurried everyone through too quickly though, and the hosts were too skeptical. Other guests were psychic John Edward, an astrologer, and a Tarot reader. It was interesting, but superficial. And I wish they'd set aside their *attitudes* and LISTEN! But his books are great.

Originally Posted by inphanta

I also agree with all your points about Karmic Justice. To that I'd also add that I believe the only "judgement" that awaits is self judgement, not a wrathful, petty dogmatic god waiting to throw people into eternal torment over technicalities.

I don't believe in Hell at all. The only eternal torment is what we make for ourselves during our lifetimes on Earth. I mean, you know, we could get reincarnated in a less desirable place, even a less desirable time! We don't necessarily move forth to the future. In fact, when my ex's wife died, she came to my guide asking if I'd give a message to my ex, and I agreed to do so. She appeared to me in old fashioned clothing, like something out of "My Fair Lady", as did her mother, who had died a few years before, and was there to meet her. I knew, and it was confirmed by my guide, that the clothing was representing that she was going back in time, not forward, and would be reincarnated in fairly short order. I passed her message on to my ex, and I don't know what he thought of it... I emailed it, and he chose not to respond. I assume it must have freed him in some way, because he married again in less than six months. There was a Pagan goddess called Helle, and I think Hell is just a misunderstanding (or even deliberate twisting by crazy old monks) of her cauldron over the fire, which is simply a symbol for rebirth/reincarnation.

Speaking of crazy old monks, everyone should see "The Name of the Rose" starring Sean Connery, or read the book by the same name by Umberto Eco. People would understand why humor is important if they saw it, and there is a really cool library in that movie, full of old scrolls.

Originally Posted by inphanta

But yes, some of these domineering so-called men of god are certainly "colourful" people. I've been doing a lot of reading on near death experiences, and read one from a southern baptist who actually found himself in a hell dimesion in spite of all his perceived piety. It completely changed his outlook.

Again, nice speaking to you again!

That priest that's been in the news lately, Father Cutie, for kissing a woman on the beach is a colorful one, for sure. He does a television show, and I gather is very popular. He has quit the Roman Catholic Church and joined the Episcopal Church, and is now going to marry the recipient of the kiss and continue his TV ministry. It will be interesting to see how that progresses!

The Southern Baptist story is funny! I like to read those too. Dannion Brinkley (_Saved by the Light_) is rather amazing, having survived a really bad lightning strike while he was on the phone, and worked his way back to where he now works with Raymond Moody (who wrote all the _Life After Death_ books) and as a Hospice volunteer helping the families of the dying.

It's interesting, and it builds up our understanding, and our trust that we're going to be okay, even if it sometimes seems impossible!

Thanks again, Inphanta... I love having someone to really talk to!

[inphanta]

Originally Posted by IrisRavenstar

Oh, I agree about coming back to help others, and also that one can serve as a spirit guide for the same purpose, as I know personally that my guide Leslie is doing that for me! He says we've known each other a loooong time, and while I don't remember that yet, I do believe it! I believe in both personal and collective karma too, I think, but perhaps not in the same way, as I'm into being very observant of how it plays out in people's lives around me, sometimes almost instantly. Which is a good thing, really, because it gives you some control over what happens to you, in the sense that you can choose to DO THE RIGHT THING, and then positive things come back to you. You don't even have to be all altruistic about either... you can do it for the express purpose of reaping what you sow.

Of course, you have to affect others around you before you affect anyone else, but it does ripple outwards eventually, which is more what I meant. Even something so much as you snapping at a stranger in a shop, for instance can have effects you wouldn't even immediately realise. You doing that could put them in a bad mood, causing them to snap at another which somewhere down the line would have other repercussions outside your circle, all because of something you chose to do (or not to in this case).

As for spirit guides, I believe in that also. A dream I mentioned on here in another thread is a good example of such. You can see it here for yourself if you feel the need. Basically I believe the being in that dream was a guide. I certainly felt as though he (or "it") knew me very, very well on a level beyond my conscious ego self.

Have you read books by Brian Weiss, M.D.? He's a psychiatrist who accidently happened onto past lives while attempting to regress a patient back to her childhood, but all he said to her was to access her "earliest memory," and she went waaay back before her current childhood. He's since gotten to be quite an expert in that area, and he's on my mind because he was a guest on The View this morning. They hurried everyone through too quickly though, and the hosts were too skeptical. Other guests were psychic John Edward, an astrologer, and a Tarot reader. It was interesting, but superficial. And I wish they'd set aside their *attitudes* and LISTEN! But his books are great.

The name rings a bell but I haven't read any of books. Which do you recommend? I'm currently reading 'Other Lives Other Selves' by Roget Woolger which has completely blown my mind with regards to what it shows about past lives. Woolger himself is a Jungian psychotherapist and approaches it from that angle and links his findings with archetypal theories in a very interesting way. I highly recommend it.

I don't believe in Hell at all. The only eternal torment is what we make for ourselves during our lifetimes on Earth. I mean, you know, we could get reincarnated in a less desirable place, even a less desirable time!

Well my conception of "hell" is not as a place people are sent to for being "bad" for any indeterminate length of time. For one, in the world of spirit and dreams, time doesn't exist as we know it, so any length of time can seem like an "eternity" (in the same way you can never really quantify the length of a dream). Anyway, with regards to "hell", it's more of a state of being than a place, a place devoid of light or love where people who've lived such lives find themselves having lived negative lives. Nobody sends them there as such. This page here sums up how I view hellish realms and makes the most sense in sense of karma.

Speaking of crazy old monks, everyone should see "The Name of the Rose" starring Sean Connery, or read the book by the same name by Umberto Eco. People would understand why humor is important if they saw it, and there is a really cool library in that movie, full of old scrolls.

I'll look out for this.

That priest that's been in the news lately, Father Cutie, for kissing a woman on the beach is a colorful one, for sure. He does a television show, and I gather is very popular. He has quit the Roman Catholic Church and joined the Episcopal Church, and is now going to marry the recipient of the kiss and continue his TV ministry. It will be interesting to see how that progresses!

I'd not actually heard about this at all, but I'm not from the US. I googled it though, and it just highlights the foolishness of the celibacy vow for Catholic priests. Humans are sexual beings by nature so to force someone to do something like this is not fair, particularly when historically the real reason for it was because a married priest's material gains would go to his spouse upon his passing rather than the greedy hands of the church.

Thanks again, Inphanta... I love having someone to really talk to!

Likewise!

[IrisRavenstar]

Originally Posted by inphanta

Of course, you have to affect others around you before you affect anyone else, but it does ripple outwards eventually, which is more what I meant. Even something so much as you snapping at a stranger in a shop, for instance can have effects you wouldn't even immediately realise. You doing that could put them in a bad mood, causing them to snap at another which somewhere down the line would have other repercussions outside your circle, all because of something you chose to do (or not to in this case).

Yikes. Well, I can well understand the ripple effect, but I don't agree that I would be responsible if someone I snapped at in a store took it personally and got in a bad mood. Maybe I snapped at them with good reason, and maybe not... they still need to sort out their *own* feelings and responsibilities in the situation. I think my goal in life is to become my own real individuated self, and that doesn't always involve making phoney nicey nice and not being true to myself no matter what, which, actually, is the kind of behavior that drove me into a severe clinical depression years ago. I came across a journal from that time, and every other word in it was "nice." I was so nice, in the face of absurd psychological abuse, that I was drowning in it.

I also learned during that time not to take it personally when an office worker at the doctor's was cranky, and realize it probably had nothing to do with me at all, since I hadn't done anything. Maybe she was just having a bad hair day or her boyfriend hadn't called when he promised to, or whatever. I took responsibility and let it go. It's not healthy to start thinking all the bad things in the world happen because of me... it's just a sort of inverse pridefulness, I think. Strange, and sick.

Originally Posted by inphanta

I certainly felt as though he (or "it") knew me very, very well on a level beyond my conscious ego self.

Our main guides are with us for our whole lifetime, so yes, they know us very well. They know what life lessons we have to get through, because planning them with us before we came here was their job, and they know what the desired outcome is, even when we're oblivious to what's going on. I hear my guides awake, so he explains a lot to me at times. Guides other than out main guides, what Leslie terms "specialist guides", may also pass through our lives as needed, like my guide JoAnne, who is a specialist in herbal and nutritional healing.

Originally Posted by inphanta

The name rings a bell but I haven't read any of books. Which do you recommend? I'm currently reading 'Other Lives Other Selves' by Roget Woolger which has completely blown my mind with regards to what it shows about past lives. Woolger himself is a Jungian psychotherapist and approaches it from that angle and links his findings with archetypal theories in a very interesting way. I highly recommend it.

Oh, that sounds like a good book too! For Brian Weiss, M.D., I'd suggest starting with _Many Lives, Many Masters_. It tells all about his initial experience with regression, and where he took it from there. A really good personal story is one written by a woman named Jenny Cockell, who actually was having memories in childhood of a recent past life where she had children, and had died when they were very young. She was even drawing the town she had lived in, especially the church they'd attended. As an adult she went there, found her former home, found and reunited her children, found the church from her pictures. The children had been put in orphanages when she died, and of course, when she met them, were now much older than she was. Just look for her name, I think it's the only book she wrote probably. There are photos of her and her family in the book. There was a tv movie based on it as well, starring Jane Seymour.

Originally Posted by inphanta

Well my conception of "hell" is not as a place people are sent to for being "bad" for any indeterminate length of time. For one, in the world of spirit and dreams, time doesn't exist as we know it, so any length of time can seem like an "eternity" (in the same way you can never really quantify the length of a dream). Anyway, with regards to "hell", it's more of a state of being than a place, a place devoid of light or love where people who've lived such lives find themselves having lived negative lives. Nobody sends them there as such. This page here sums up how I view hellish realms and makes the most sense in sense of karma.

I don't actually believe in that concept of hell either, which sounds like Robin Williams' movie, "What Dreams May Come," whether or not someone sends themselves there... and I don't think we have all that much control over everything. I believe there are standards to be met by us, that are not all self-determined. It's like school. We study and learn, and we pass the class. If we don't, we probably have to repeat it. There is no place totally devoid of light and love, and no one is left in a place like that on the Other Side, imo. I know this from my brother, who committed suicide, and found loving helpers to help him heal and grow there as much as he had neglected to here.

Time, imo, is linked to consciousness, and since I expect to keep consiousness when I cross over, I also expect there to be a time factor.

And definitely do get "The Name of the Rose"... I think you'd like it.

Well, really Father Cutie wasn't forced to do that, he chose to join the Roman Catholic priesthood knowing there was a rule of celibacy. He could have chosen the Episcopal Church, or another Protestant chuch, in the first place! I don't know whether the reasons the Roman church requires celibacy amongst it's clergy has anything to do with their money. I think priests and nuns can leave money to parents, siblings, other relatives, just like any other person does.

I think it has more to do with a quote from Jesus, who said that in Heaven, we're all like the angels, neither male nor female. I take this as meaning much what Jungian psychology means, actually, that we are individuated, and have *both* sides of our minds fully active and in balance, and are no longer caught up in the male/female false dichotomy that we experience here. We are whole beings. Bearing children is not an eternal thing; it's part of *this* world. Sex is not an eternal thing; there'd be no need for it. Eternity is for those who choose to grow up and leave Never Never Land.

This is not a popular opinion, of course, but I believe it's the truth, and believe it enough to have committed to celibacy myself in these latter years, despite it not being required by some church I attend.

Well, you need not rush in answering, as I'm going to take the weekend offline, hopefully, and get some reading done. I'm reading a Gnostic study by Elaine Pagels and a book by the real Allison DuBois, and would like to finish both and watch some of "Saving Grace" DVD. I stay home for this holiday to avoid drunk drivers! I hope you have a good one!

[inphanta]

Originally Posted by IrisRavenstar

Yikes. Well, I can well understand the ripple effect, but I don't agree that I would be responsible if someone I snapped at in a store took it personally and got in a bad mood. Maybe I snapped at them with good reason, and maybe not... they still need to sort out their *own* feelings and responsibilities in the situation. I think my goal in life is to become my own real individuated self, and that doesn't always involve making phoney nicey nice and not being true to myself no matter what, which, actually, is the kind of behavior that drove me into a severe clinical depression years ago. I came across a journal from that time, and every other word in it was "nice." I was so nice, in the face of absurd psychological abuse, that I was drowning in it.

I probably didn't put my point across clearly enough. My apologies. I wasn't saying one is directly responsible for another person's reaction to them (that would be silly), what I meant was that negativity tends to perpetuate itself and one could help prevent that by choosing not to behave in a negative manner towards another, thus helping to prevent negativity from spreading. This doesn't mean one has to be fake or artificial towards other people neither does it mean forcing yourself to be "nice" to people who don't deserve it. It simply means trying to avoid spreading negative energy because everything ripples out.

Oh, that sounds like a good book too! For Brian Weiss, M.D., I'd suggest starting with _Many Lives, Many Masters_. It tells all about his initial experience with regression, and where he took it from there. A really good personal story is one written by a woman named Jenny Cockell, who actually was having memories in childhood of a recent past life where she had children, and had died when they were very young. She was even drawing the town she had lived in, especially the church they'd attended. As an adult she went there, found her former home, found and reunited her children, found the church from her pictures. The children had been put in orphanages when she died, and of course, when she met them, were now much older than she was. Just look for her name, I think it's the only book she wrote probably. There are photos of her and her family in the book. There was a tv movie based on it as well, starring Jane Seymour.

I'll look out for that book. It sounds like a lovely story and certainly shows how love can draw souls towards each other again and again.

I don't actually believe in that concept of hell either, which sounds like Robin Williams' movie, "What Dreams May Come," whether or not someone sends themselves there... and I don't think we have all that much control over everything. I believe there are standards to be met by us, that are not all self-determined. It's like school. We study and learn, and we pass the class. If we don't, we probably have to repeat it. There is no place totally devoid of light and love, and no one is left in a place like that on the Other Side, imo. I know this from my brother, who committed suicide, and found loving helpers to help him heal and grow there as much as he had neglected to here.

Well it's probably best not to think of it as "hell" in the classic sense (i.e. a place where you go if you are bad and are punished Dante's Inferno style), but more as a realm to which souls that have lived negative lives are drawn to other similarly negative souls. Why, for instance would someone who has lived as a serial killer or rapist, spending an entire lifetime killing other and destroying people's lives die and go straight towards light and love? To me, that would not make any sense. A person who has lived a life like that has voluntarily chosen darkness over light (by following their "lower beastly nature") and has accumulated masses of negative karma. Therefore, they have effectively cut themselves off from light and love. Logically, then, the only place for such a soul would be a realm where the opposite applies.

There, they have to reflect on what they have done, on all the hate, pain, fear and negativity they have created within their own soul (reaping and sowing) which would be... hell for that soul. It's not so much punishment as realisation that they have been their own worst enemy by putting themselves in such a place because of their own choices (it's all about free will). The ultimate purpose is for cleansing in order for that soul to eventually return to the light, but that may take a very long time. Eventually these souls do find the light again an are reincarnated (i.e. given another chance). I don't think Hitler, Charles Manson or Fred West for example went straight to "heaven" after spending their lifetimes destroying others.

Also, contrary to some religious dogma, people who commit suicide do not "go to hell" as (again) near death research shows. A soul's afterlife state is determined by the spiritual state of the soul in question. There is a whole section on that site I linked you to about suicidal NDEs and they are largely positive or should I say compassionate.

And of course you have earthbound spirits which are those bound by earthly addictions. Again, it is said that many of these souls choose not to go to the light because they are still tied to those addictions (which they can no longer fulfil without a body) or because they are afraid of judgement. These are the souls, it is said that become ghosts that haunt places and also account for spirit possessions.

Ultimately, none of us really knows for certain whilst in these bodies so it's all open to speculation. You can only really go by your own experience and those of others. Again, the near death experiences I've read on suggest that the spirit world isn't all sweetness and light and there are negative realms as well as positive just like here in the physical - as above so below.

Well, really Father Cutie wasn't forced to do that, he chose to join the Roman Catholic priesthood knowing there was a rule of celibacy. He could have chosen the Episcopal Church, or another Protestant chuch, in the first place! I don't know whether the reasons the Roman church requires celibacy amongst it's clergy has anything to do with their money. I think priests and nuns can leave money to parents, siblings, other relatives, just like any other person does.

I didn't mean to suggest he was forced into anything, I was really commenting on why the Roman Catholic church even deems celibacy to be necessary for its priests as it has absolutely nothing to do with their ability to do their "job". And you're right, priests and nuns do leave their money to family but historically as I said, the Vatican saw their priests as being "married to the church" and this was really where the celibacy policy stemmed from.

I think it has more to do with a quote from Jesus, who said that in Heaven, we're all like the angels, neither male nor female. I take this as meaning much what Jungian psychology means, actually, that we are individuated, and have *both* sides of our minds fully active and in balance, and are no longer caught up in the male/female false dichotomy that we experience here. We are whole beings. Bearing children is not an eternal thing; it's part of *this* world. Sex is not an eternal thing; there'd be no need for it. Eternity is for those who choose to grow up and leave Never Never Land.

Well it's certainly true that the soul is essentially asexual and has the archetypal capacity for both male and female, but whilst in human bodies (as these priests are) in the physical world, we are subject to its cravings and trappings. Yes, sex is not an eternal thing, it is a product of the physical, material world but then again so is food (the eternal soul doesn't need to eat, but when it is in a human body it does, which is why we do).

This is not a popular opinion, of course, but I believe it's the truth, and believe it enough to have committed to celibacy myself in these latter years, despite it not being required by some church I attend.

Some people have indeed chosen this path and more power to them if they deem it necessary for their growth (doesn't Paul say something in the Bible about some people having the "gift of celibacy"?), but imo it becomes problematic when people who do this not through free choice, but out of duty. As the case with Father Cutie attests. (I also think that within Christianity in general there is a lot of false piety concerning sexual matters, but that's another topic).

Anyway, presumably you'll be reading this after your weekend is finished so I hope you have a good one. I'm usually around in some capacity or other so I thought I'd reply now anyway.

That said, I'll most likely not be on here myself for much of the weekend anyway and I'm off out now.

Out of interest what's your take on sacred geometry? I've been reading a lot on it recently and watching YouTube videos on the subject and I am very fascinated by it all.

[IrisRavenstar]

Hi inphanta,

I ended up checking in this morning, so here I am! Only for a bit though, as it's looking as if it will be a lovely outdoor day today, after a month or more of mostly rain!

I just don't agree about what you say about behaving negatively towards another, because I think it's a karmic lesson thing, in that if someone does something hurtful, they may *need* to be responded to in kind in order to *see* what they are doing to others. I don't think it's so black and white as to think that just not doing anything negative to them will fix the problem. It rarely does, especially when dealing with people who are chronically abusive. If you're nice to them, they just feel they've done nothing wrong. Sometimes, I might just explain what they're doing; others I might just allow myself to react, which probably will mirror their behavior for them. I do what feels *real* and right at the time, in other words. For some people to be given a negative response to their negative behavior is not necessarily a negative thing! Did you ever study mathematics with negative numbers? Two negatives can actually make a positive.

We're really not in a position to judge even someone as heinous as Hitler, or to know where he went after his death, are we? I don't know what life experiences made him what he was. I can't even judge whether he did what he did because it was what he was supposed to do in order to provide lessons for the many. I don't know where Adolph Hitler went, or what he went through. I do know my brother, who committed suicide via a cocaine overdose while at sea on a fishing boat, unable to reach shore to save him, went to a place that was therapeutic, where he had people to help him heal from his experiences here. I'm not saying it was easy, but there was certainly love there, and light. He was a drug addict, and also was in remission from bone cancer when he died. Part of his lessons since his death have included having to watch over the people who loved him, and see the effects his death had on each one... this is part of his ongoing karmic lessons, which do not end with death. Watching my mother was probably a form of Hell for him, I've no doubt, and she took his death very hard, and a light went out inside her. She developed a problem with prescription tranquillizers and alcohol, mixing them so that I wouldn't let her drive when with her. She stopped doing all the things she loved, and retreated from life, and was very depressed, and finally died of cancer herself at way too young an age. It had to be hard for Tom to watch that. I've been told that he liked watching me though, because his death was in great part the impetus for me to gain a much deeper spirituality.

I don't believe in hell as a place, or a situation, where there is no light or love available, not at all. God loves all of us, and always will. And that doesn't mean that things will all be rosy after death. But it doesn't mean it's all black and white and serial killers and rapists are treated to some form of hell, necessarily, either. But watching their victims and their victims loved ones probably becomes a personal hell for them.

I don't believe in heaven as a place everyone goes to either, and I think I said that before. I believe that we ultimately graduate off the earth plane, when we're mature enough to sustain a better place, without all the war, disease, poverty, disaster, etc. I don't think it's a place where we are all going to live in a mansion, and who'd want to clean it anyway? Because I don't see any servants in the picture either. We have to learn to be reasonable human beings to go there, and that can take many lifetimes to evolve to that point. It's what my guide Leslie refers to as the OTHER Other Side. LOL... he's funny that way. The Other Side where most are going, is what Wiccans call "Summer", which I think is very apt. It's like Summer Vacation in a sense, in that it's the break between our incarnations, which are our school, here on Earth. But some also have summer school there, because they failed to complete what they were supposed to here; they screwed up. Some also go directly to be reincarnated, no time out really.

I have not had any real experience with earthbound spirits, other than what I've read. My brother isn't what I'd term that at all, and he was severely addicted to drugs. So, I don't know what to say to that. I go mostly by my own experience. He visits when he's close by waiting for another family member to cross over. That's what my family members do. Mostly, they are out of my sight unless another family member is dying, or they need to get a message to me for some reason. I talk mostly to my guides and angels.

But the stance on celibacy is more complex than your picture of it. It wasn't arbitrary. It is related to "original sin" being perceived as sex! There is also the idea, especially with Gnostics, that we have to become what we're supposed to be while we are here, in these bodies, not that we're going to become perfected after death, but that we have to gain what we're supposed to gain while we're in the body, in order to move up to a higher plane. Think about that! How would that change what you do in life? You can't just say, I can do it now, because I'm subject to these cravings in this body. It really doesn't work that way.

I used to read about sacred geometry, but never felt it took me anywhere important, just that it was interesting. A good book I have that references it a lot is _Serpent in the Sky: The High Wisdom of Ancient Egypt_ by John Anthony West. I got so into that that I marked it all up all over the place. He talks a lot about a man named Schwaller de Lubicz, who I think has also written his own books. I got fascinated with one set of drawings related to the proportions of a skeleton, which ended up looking very much like computer circuit boards, lots of strange and interesting stuff. I sometimes wonder though if some of these things are red herrings, distracting us from what is of real value.

Well, I've got to scoot. Lily and I are both ready for breakfast, and I probably won't be back until tomorrow. You all have a good Sunday!






Out of interest what's your take on sacred geometry? I've been reading a lot on it recently and watching YouTube videos on the subject and I am very fascinated by it all.[/quote]

[screaminvern]

Just some food for thought. When the bible was first translated into English (KJV) the word "hell" was used to replace 4 or 5 words from the original writings. At the moment I can't remember all the original words except for "Sheol" & "Gehenna". Sheol is Hebrew meaning "grave" or "common grave". Gehenna was a regional dump where people took garbage, dead animals and executed prisoners. Fires were constantly burning there to keep disease minimal.